A moofable feast.

Be brave enough to burn and you'll be brave enough to fly.


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I think that both you and Fred Clark understand why I chose my username.

This is an excellent essay; you have a remarkable talent for stating these things clearly.

I've been watching/following the military's talks about ending DADT. The attitude some of the people in the military take about non-heterosexuals so pisses me off. I've always thought that the military should be more understanding of those different from them. I've always tried to bring up the fact that if I'm allowed to be married and have a significant other, everyone else should be able to have the same no matter who they want as a significant other.

This is really excellent. Would you mind if I link to it?

Not at all, please feel free.

When I was first wrapping my head around the concept of privilege, one of the really good things that was pointed out to me was that no one is seeking to take anything away from anyone. No one is seeking to tell people in heterosexual relationships that they shouldn't be able to casually express their relationship status but instead we're looking for everyone to experience that privilege. It will cease to become a privilege because it's something that everyone has, not something no one does.

In my eyes, the matter is complicated by one-step-removed privilege too, by which I mean cases where both party a and party b belong to a privileged group, but parties c, d and e are friends/relatives of party a who belong to an unprivileged group, and who party a may "lose" their privilege in the eyes of party b as a result.

I realise I haven't explained this very well, so I'll give an example from my own experience - although a white heterosexual male myself (so triply priviliged) I have faced problems from certain members of my family on a few occasions merely due to the fact I have friends in same-sex relationships or marriages, and am seen as lesser for it.

Oh, yes. Nobody can opt out of privilege completely, but if you're not coloring inside the lines like everybody else then society reacts badly... by doing your best not to go along with the throat-punching machine, you're threatening everybody else's protected status.

Poly folk and kinky folk are hardly embraced by society at large, but there's nothing like the systemic oppression directed at gay men.

A very interesting and thoughtful post overall, but this bit stuck out at me and I was curious as to your feelings as to the "why" of it. I wonder if it's because poly and kink aren't as loud/known to the general population as gay men are, but as they become more outspoken they'll face that oppression? Or if it's that it doesn't represent a threat to one's masculinity in the same way some people think homosexuality does, or if it's because the bible (to my knowledge) doesn't say anything that could be interpreted as condemnation as these acts... Or is it something else entirely?

I'm sorry if these seem like really dumb or obvious questions to you, I just hadn't thought about that specific point before.

(Also hi, I'm not sure if we've been introduced, but I'm a ToMU reader who wanders over here from time to time. *waves* I hope that's okay!)

I think "all of the above" with a dash of "Why ask why? Try Bud Dry!" A heterosexual D/s couple and a group of heterosexual folks in a plural relationship don't represent as basic and fundamental a challenge to society's ideas about gender roles (even a dominant woman with a submissive man can be--and often is--viewed as "role reversal" rather than something that breaks down or challenges the roles) that queer folk do, in most people's eyes... but the simplest answer is that poly and kinky folk don't face systematic oppression for being poly and kinky because we don't. Nobody is systematically oppressing us at that level.

This doesn't mean that society is full of hugs and puppies for the kinky and the polyamorous. There are contexts where, having identified that it's relatively safe to be open about my gender identity and sexuality, I'm not comfortable divulging my kinks or my relationship structure. They still represent coloring outside the lines of heteronormativity and so there are still backlashes directed at people, though it's less organized and less visceral.

People have lost their jobs for being outed as being involved in BDSM or unconventional relationship structures, and had it held against them in things like child custody hearings, but far fewer people (likely approaching zero) are beaten or killed for those things.

A BDSM-oriented couple is mostly going to have people reacting to them by whether they're same-sex or mixed and their gender presentation.

I wish I could remember exactly what link brought me here, but seems to me lunakitten pointed me in this direction.

Being able to say... casually, without a second thought... that you're in a relationship with the person whom you are in a relationship is privilege.
I think this is where I get hung up. To me "privilege" is something special that I have that (the proverbial) you don't, that by rights you should take away from me to level the playing field. Thus "a right" is something that maybe not everyone has, but to level the playing field everyone should have.
And so, to speak casually of a relationship is IMHO a right. To be seriously considered for a job no matter how you look is a right (and one I miss--here in Asia it's common practice to put a photo on a resume, and no one has given me a legitimate reason for that). So to tell me I have "privilege", I hear that as "I want to take away what you take for granted" and since some of those I'd rather we all had...of course I get defensive.
Language matters. Am I making sense?

You're right. It is a right that everybody has "by rights", but the problem is that society prizes (or privileges) some people's rights over others.

And sure language matters. And if we say "right", then because we used that word then people who are bigger assholes than you say "It's a free country! You have the right to say what you want to! The law will protect you if you say it and punish anybody who hurts you for it!"

See, this is one reason why we need a separate word to cover privilege. It covers the actual dynamics of society. In a feudal society with literal classes/castes, privilege is explicit... it literally means "private law", i.e., one law for the royalty, one law for the nobles, one law for the freemen, one law for the serfs.

In our society, privilege is more implicit, and whether you look at it as "something extra that you have" or "something that everybody else lacks" is a matter of perspective. And you know what? Quibbling over which perspective to take is a luxury of the people who are above those below.

It's like arguing whether you're five feet higher or they're five feet lower when flood waters are coming in... maybe you have the time and inclination to pursue the fine distinction as an intellectual matter, but they don't.

It's a privileged perspective, in other words.

Obviously whether the solution is to raise everybody else up five feet or lower the people who are above down five feet is going to depend on what the hell we're talking about.

Is there any way it makes any kind of sense to think that anyone who calls this example of relationship status "privilege" is agitating to make everyone else shut up about their relationships?" Any way?

If there isn't then your objection sounds awfully disingenuous.

I mean, let's look at what you're saying here. How much does language matter to you? You're saying you get "hung up" and "defensive" when people use the word privilege because you feel like somebody's taking something away from you.

Do you act on these feelings? Does it change how you view people who are fighting for their rights, based on the word they choose to describe their plight? Does it alter your willingness to support them.

If so, then the people I described above as being "bigger assholes" are still bigger assholes than you... but... yeah. How does that not make you an asshole?

Edited at 2010-02-19 01:18 am (UTC)

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